Bad Food, Bad People, No Influence
The only tricky issues I’ve had with this blog are not with spammers or others but with commentators who feel their cuisine is being attacked. The easiest thing would just be to lie low.
But now History of Greek Food and Maria(Organically Cooked two of my favorite bloggers have reacted strongly to a question raised by Adam Balic, whether the British had any influence on Greek cuisine prior to World War II. By the way, I don’t think Adam ever suggested it had a big influence, he was simply inquiring if it had some influence.
The way their questions have been phrased raise some important issues about how we go about food history. So I’m going to take the risk of offending my Greek commentators and respond to Mariana’s comments about possible traces of British influence on Greek food.
In Mariana’s latest long comment (submitted twice), the argument is roughly this:
1. British food is “dull.” Greeks make jokes about how bad it is.
2. The British have been resented in Greece because of, for example, “the despotic character” of their High Commissioners.
3. “Why then should a fifty English years occupation of Ionian island have a big impact on Greek food?”
I’d like to suggest that this kind of argument, found frequently in food history, actually does not hold up. And here’s why.
1. Making jokes about how bad other groups’ food is and has been, as I am sure we all realize, a sport for thousands of years.
In fact it’s both depressing and informative to see how it crops up almost everywhere. All groups define themselves against others and since food is one of the most characteristic traits of any group it serves as a stand in for their character.
So to put it contentiously (because there are always exceptions) the Greeks think British food is dull. The British think American food is all processed and canned, and the Americans think the same is true of British food. The Japanese have acused Chinese food of being greasy and Okinawans of being pork eaters, the Igbos have been heard to say that Yoruba food is too hot, the Yorubas that Igbo food is bland, the French in the 1930s poured scorn on American food, a scorn only surpassed by that for German sauerkraut. The Western Europeans thought the garum of Byzantium was like piss, the Persians thought the beer of the Western Europeans was like piss. The Dutch have been accused of eating too much butter and beer, and the Spanish of eating greasy foods.
How many more examples do we need of this depressing catalog? Well, I’ll just add that the ancient Greeks had nothing good to say about Scythian food and that their critique of Persian sauces and roast meats had such staying power that Jaubert who wrote many of the food articles in the great French Encyclopedie of the late eighteenth century was still using it to criticise the Old Regime.
Two things can be said about these stereotypes. First, they are usually shorthand for supposed characteristics (dull equals heavy handed and lacking in finesse, greasy equals slippery, kraut equals barbaric, greasy equals slippery, luxurious equals oriential despotism).
Second, they usually say more about the speaker’s prejudices than about the food in question.
And they cloud the vision which is why my rule number one for food history is don’t begin with judgements about good and bad taste. Unless you’re consciously writing a history of food prejudices.
2. Those in power are almost always resented–and perhaps rightly, perhaps not. I grew up in a household where Americans were resented as the new Romans.
3. Does it follow that resentment translates into a rejection of the foods of the disliked group?” The answer is clearly not as the case of Greece makes clear.
Persians were deeply resented in the ancient world but the Greeks accepted their way of dining and much of their cuisine. The same could be said of the Ottomans.
So please, if we’re trying for history rather than polemic, let’s begin by examining the evidence.
Oh and by the way, there are a number of other food history fallacies that I will follow up on later: that there must be occupation for influence, that there must be large numbers for influence, that there must be a long period for influence. Lots more to talk about.
please excuse my husband’s comment about the british not having a cuisine – he is not a food blogger, just a food eater. and in noway was i implying that bad food – bad people
what i took offence with was adam’s rather colonial outlook that it is odd for the British not to have left so little foot print on world cuisines given their political and economic influence during the 17th, 18th and 19th century
if they were so influential in greece, then greece would not have been in the hands of the ottomans, and things would definitely have been very different
of course, in my usual way, i have written a witty post all about pudding, which will be posted towards the end of the month – and just like pudding, it is meant to be enjoyed (!)
Maria, Thanks for the response. I know well that many people think as your husband does. Americans frequently offer their condolences for what they take to have been my awful fate growing up eating British food and I have learned to just smile politely. What I am worried about here is how this assumption is used to make arguments about the history of food, arguments that I believe need to be better thought out.
I will leave Adam to defend himself. But after ten years studying food history I would say that the single most important predictor of the history of food of a given place is the series of empires that ruled the area. This is an inductive conclusion, true of the Han empire, the Mongol Empire, the successive Persian empires, the Ottoman empire, and, yes, the British empire too.
So when I try to figure out the culinary history of a particular region, my first question is always: what was the political history?
Although I’ve been reading this dialogue with interested, so far I’ve stayed out of the debate. In general, I agree with you that it’s best to stick with the facts. However, most of Mariana’s post that you discuss dealt with facts about Greek food history, not polemic.
In fairness, I suspect the responses were triggered by Adam’s original question, which was whether there was an English influence on Greek food “[g]iven how important the British were for Greek independence and the amount of British in Greece (tourists, Grand Tour, Naval bases, trade).” I think Mariana was just trying to explain that most Greeks don’t really share the assumption underlying Adam’s question about the importance of the British to the Greeks.
In many ways, British diplomats stood in the way of Greek Independence, and hampered Greek interests over the years. For example, the British insisted, over vehement local objection, that the Ionian islands stay neutral in the Greek War of Independence. It’s commonly believed in Greece that Britain stood by while Smyrna burned and when Cyprus was invaded, mouthing the words of friendship but ultimately refusing to protect their supposed Greek allies. I don’t say this to criticize Britain in any way, but only to point out the fallacious assumption underlying Adam’s original question.
The actual debate is whether English food influenced Greek food in any significant way. Having studied Greek food and Greek food history for several decades, I’ve never seen any evidence of it. While the Persians and the Ottoman empire had profound influences on Greek food, the same can not be said for the Brits. In the Ionian Islands, the primary “foreign” influence came from the Venetian occupations.
Coincidentally, I’ve just been reading a number of 18th and 19th century books by British visitors to Greece and Turkey. The authors are universally disgusted and appalled by Greek food, finding the pervasive garlic, herbs, and olive oil to be disgusting. I’m unaware of similar books from the opposite point of view (Greeks of that era discussing English food), but I suspect British food wouldn’t have been much to the Greeks liking.
Though Poutinga may be an English-origin recipe, I wonder if a single borrowed dish counts as a significant influence on a regional cuisine? In Prospero’s Kitchen: Mediterranean Cooking in the Ionian Islands from Corfu to Kythera, Diane Farr Louis and June Marinos say this about Poudinga Inglesiki: “This pudding used to be served in grand Corfiot houses. Obviously a legacy from the British Protectorate, it is rarely found nowadays.” And about a second recipe for Poudinga: “This pudding was considered an economical sweet and harks back to the British Protectorate. June’s mother-in-law, who was half British, loved puddings. Her love was not shared by the younger members of her family, who made up a scornful song about her Roly Poly Pudding.”
Farr-Louis and Marinos addressed the British influence on the Ionians as follows: “The British governed them for 50 years, building roads and schools, though, fortunately, having little effect on their love of garlic and distaste for hard liquor.” They also write, “Ionian cooking is quintessentially Mediterranean: laced with sweet virgin olive oil balanced by the acidity of tomatoes and lemon juice, heady with garlic, and reliant on herbs rather than piquant spices for taste. … By and large, the English stationed on the islands made no attempt to adjust their diet to the mild Mediterranean climate. When they ventured into the countryside as guests of an Ionian landowner, they invariably took their chefs along. The host would provide the raw materials, which the chef would then prepare in a safe, familiar manner. ‘Thus you escape the oil and garlic flavor which usually permeates all native cookery.'” In other words, even the wealthy Ionions, apparently didn’t bother trying to adjut their cooking to British tastes.
Dear Laurie,
Many thanks for your long and thoughtful reply. Yes Mariana’s post is full of facts and all the more appreciated for those facts.
I am also sure you are right in reporting that most Greeks do not perceive that the British had an important role in their past. But is that the relevant question? If I ask most Mexicans if the French had an important role in their past they will say no even though historians are agreed that there was a very important role and that it is reflected in the food.
And I am quite willing to believe that when you look at Greek food, British influence is very limited. I am not enough of an expert to say yes or no to this. But that doesn’t mean the question is not worth asking.
I know very well that the British traditionally did not like Greek food. Nor did most northern Europeans. Politeness made me refrain from saying so. Our present openness to foreign foods is something very new in history. In the past, on medical advice if for no other reasons, it was believed that it was positively dangerous to eat foods different from those you had grown up with. I could post lots and lots on this. May be I will.
So as not to repeat myself, please also look at the comments on other posts.
Rachel,
I didn’t wrote that ‘English food is dull’ but ‘English food enjoyed the same reputation as the British foreign policy. The Greeks made jokes about the dullness of British cuisine; even today, old Greeks say for those who have not gastro gusto: ‘they eat like Englishmen’, reflecting not only their idea for Greek food as a source of pride but also describing Britain’s place in their psycological world’, meaning that the generated anti- British climate was expressed even with jokes about English food.
As you know, food is a good field to demonstrate ethnic national identity and can be a huge source of pride and prejudice, since is often treated as a code, and the messages it encodes can be treated as emblematic features of superiority. I also believe that the food stereotypes can be sharpened by historic events.
‘The British have been resented in Greece because of, for example, “the despotic character” of their High Commissioners’ and ‘Does it follow that resentment translates into a rejection of the foods of the disliked group?’:
The British had been resented in Ionian islands because of the despotic character of British High Commissioners who were famous for their anti-hellenic attitude, especially during the war of Greek independence and the hard repression following the demand for union of the Ionian Islands with the rest of Greece and the Kefalonia uprisings of 1848. And they had been resented in Greece because of their involvement in Greek internal affairs, civil war and Cyprus. I totally agree with you: ‘Those in power are almost always resented.’
Particularly, if the amalgamation of the different cultures is almost absent. The English travelers of 19th century pointed out: ‘Englishmen have been very few in number, in addition to the officers of the annually changing garrison’ and ‘ The English have been generally disliked, because they have treated the Greeks with contempt, and contempt never did any good.’ (F. Kirkwall, Four years in the Ionian islands.) Regarding food, Kirkwall says that the plan when an Englishman visited Greeks is that ‘the host supplies you with the raw material, whilst you take your own cook, who prepares all your meals. Thus you escape the oil and garlic flavour which usually permeates all native cookery’ (F. Kirkwall, Four years in the Ionian islands, p. 74) On the other hand, most people in islands had very hard life. ‘There are only two classes the very rich and the very poor: the former (chiefly Counts of Venetian creation) are constantly intriguing to remove from office to office, or to murder each other; and the latter are such submissive retainers to them, from fear or bribery, as to be always the ready instruments of their vengeance.’ ( W. Turner, Journal of a tour in the Levant, p. 181). And these were the vast majority of the Ionians (who also suffered from starvation during the long fasting periods) while the local affluent families were stuck in their Greek-Venetian past.
I believe that in the Greek case the resentment combined with other parametres did translate into a rejection of the foods of the disliked group.
P.S1. I posted the previous comment twice because I thought it has not been successfully submitted.
PS2. I never meant to start a controversy or a polemic, I am not that kind of person….though I have to admit I’ve enjoyed your mind-sharpening posts.
Dear Mariana,
Thanks for all the clarifications. And please, good discussions are the way to move food history ahead. We need to sharpen so many of our ideas and assumptions.
I realize that you did not say it was your opinion that English food was dull. What you did do, if I am right, was to take this reported attitude as a starting point for explaining why/asserting that Greeks rejected British food. My reply is that thhis can’t be asserted as a reason for the rejection of the food because people accept plenty of food they dislike (the Japanese court accepted French food in the early 20th century for reasons that had nothing to do with taste). They also accept foods of people they dislike.
On the English preparing their own foods–this was standard operating procedure whenever traveling abroad for anyone who could manage it from Antiquity more or less until WWII. See response to Laurie.
As a Canadian born of Greek extraction, I cannot think of one Greek dish that I’ve enjoyed in my household or that of Greek family & friends.
In Canada we are exposed to many cuisines and I do love an English Sunday Dinner, trifle or a banofee pie.
I’ve also made the Poutinga (and upon further reading)…poutinga comes from the French word, boudin.
Greeks do enjoy a good sandwich, so…I’ll tip my hat to the Earl of Sandwich…good on ya mate!
Peter, thanks for the comments. One thing about this discussion is that I am adding lots of great blogs to my reader. And Greek-oriented blogs are heavily represented! And, ah yes, sandwiches.
Maria, putting aside the irony of taking offense at perceived colonialism in the context of discussion on Greek history, what I would say is that if the only history that you want to know about the bits that you like, then there is an awful lot that you will have to ignore. Rachel’s site is is largely concerned with the effects of colonialism on cuisine and people. I personally are not happy about much of world history and how one group of people have treated another, but I want to know about it and more specifically, how it has influenced what people eat.
The British Empire did have a big influence on modern Greek history. And while British philhellenes were under every bush in the early 19th century, much of that influence can easily been seen as negative from a modern perspective. On a basic level Greek independence and the Greek people just didn’t matter as much as obstructing Russian influence and territorial expansion in the Balkans. If this required supporting the Ottomans then it happened, and when this empire looked unable to block Russia then the British (and French and Austrian Hapsburgs) supported Greek independence (to a point). All part of the Great Game played out on many fronts.
But, what influence did it have on these peoples food is what I am interested in and what I have asked about.
Laurie that is very interesting information. In some ways it parallels developments in another area I have a personal interest in, the British Raj and the way both British and Indians responed to each others foods. The period of the British Protectorate would correspond well with the development of a strong strain of cultural arrogance in the British. Many people don’t realise that while curry was wildly popular at the begining of the 19th century, it was largely rejected by the British population by the end of that century. Rather then go ‘native’, which would have been the case at one point, Expats were importing canned lobster and all sorts of “home” comforts, not that disimilar in some ways to the items that Rachel posted about recently.
On the other hand the rejection of Poudinga by a younger generation of Corfiots is also very interesting. Objectively there is nothing horrible about the food item itself, pretty much the same thing is eaten planet wide by many different cultures with quite different tastes. Rejection of a food item is just as interesting as its uptake and spread (think of Reconquest Spain and various poscribed food items). Rejection of food perceived being “British” is pretty universal. Even here in Melbourne (third largest greek city in the world?) most young Aussies will tell you how bad British food is, without the faintest hint of actual experience. I must look into the spread of pudding a bit more. My hypothesis would be that if introduced to a new location prior to 1850 it would be accepted as a dish and ultimately its British origins forgotten, after this period more likely to be rejected. Thanks again for the very interesting information.
For anyone to maintain that there has been little or no direct British influence on Greek gastronomy is a sign of ignorance regarding food history in Greece. Here is one example of a direct influence on Greek food culture via British agency: http://greekgourmand.blogspot.com/2008/05/kumquat-sweet-for-your-thoughts.html The introduction of the Kumquat to Greece is not the only such example, indeed, it is my understanding that it was the British who assisted Count Capodistrias to introduce the potato to Greece in the 19th century: http://greekgourmand.blogspot.com/2008/04/patatopita-potato-pie.html There are other examples as well.
kumquat – yes! more corfiot-british food (and that’s where it basically stayed!)
And your point? Are you saying that a regional food in Greece isn’t Greek food? Or just that Corfu isn’t properly Greek?
as sam sotiropoulos points out in his post about the kumquat, this particular ‘regional food item’ of greece is so scarce, and is found only in one place and has mainly stayed there for historical commercial reasons, that it can hardly be constituted a food item of national importance. yes, it is a direct influence of the british living in the area at the time
what do the british usually do with pretty ornamental trees like the kumquat, which they introduced to europe (via a botanist travelling scotsman in the mid-1800s)? they include them in their very pretty gardens, a very un-Greek feature of gardening, mainly due to a lack of irrigation in the summer months. oranges could not survive the cold of northern greece – but the kumquat could, and there, in the desolation of a starved people in kerkira due to the warring rulers, the kumquat began to be eaten – and why not? after all, it was edible.
one thing the British left behind in the island we call Kerkira in greece (aka Corfu in the english-speaking tourist trade) was good marketing strategies for tourist development – the kumquat is clearly a commercial venture by the corfiots: it is highly unlikely that they consume as many themselves as they sell to their tourists – the kumquat (jellied, as a spoon sweet, or used in making a liqueur) is the ‘something different’ that tourists often seek when they visit a foreign place: http://organicallycooked.blogspot.com/2009/11/kumquat.html
greek gastronomy outside of kerkira does not include any other examples of kumquat being used as an ingredient in a food item – it is not even known as a food item outside of corfu. the corfiots, greek at heart (with great pride in their regional character, just like the locals of any other part of greece, except perhaps athens), decided to make something out of it, in a similar manner to the way they once embraced the english bread and butter pudding – poutinga uses up stale bread. but they could never convince any other greeks to take up their food habits – and hence, adam, in corfu they stayed…
lest i forget, in answer to your question, adam, the last thing i had on mind was to discriminate against the corfiots or their food habits, and i apologise to them if they think that this is what i was implying; as a person who has herself attempted to describe as accurately as possible the food scene of one particular region of greece (roughly a quarter of the island i live on), i am only suggesting that the kumquat is perhaps another oddity that never became accepted in the world of greek gastronomy, in the same way that, say, the french bechamel sauce (under the influence of the anti-ottoman celebrity chef tselementes) became a recognised feature of greek cuisine
OK I now officially declare a moratorium on the British influences on Greek Cuisine.
We are a group of foodie travelers from California. We visited Greece this summer. Greek islands are beautiful for sure, Hydra is our favorite. but when it comes to food, Greece is surprisingly at the bottom of our list. Whoever thinks Greek food is worth considering, has obviously not been to the neighboring country Turkey. The contrast is so ridiculously stark and even obscene that it’s waste of time to even explain. Variety, hospitality and culinary culture in Turkey is on obsession level. Greece is so not a foodie country.